Undeath, and Races

No, there will never be an expansion in our lifetime but...Kage and I were thinking about the spell Undeath and heres what we think it should do, this lead to going over races too. We took the qualities of the undead and put it in the spell.
Undeath-Necromancer lvl 40
Duration: until death or resurrected by Cleric
Resurrect XP- regain 0%
Illusion Undead
Movement -20%
Maxmana -30%
Castehaste -20%
Maxhealth +30%
Haste -10%
Dmg +25%
Defense +10%
Offense -15%
Maxstam +35%
Resist Disease: 150
Resist Poison: 150
Resist Fire: -200
Resist Cold: 100
Critical -20%
Supressgreviouswound
Races coming soon, please don't post until i have race drafts up

Troll (Hardest Hitter)
Maxmana -20%
Haste -10%
Cast haste -20%
Dmg 30%
Movement -25%
Offense -15%
maxhealth 20%
Crit -10%

Titan (good tank)
Phys Resist: 40
Dmg 10%
Health 15%
Def 10%
Crit -10%
Magic Resist: -50
xp penalty: 30%

Gnome (Good Caster, Fast Hitter)
Maxmana 15%
Casthaste 15%
haste 15%
maxhealth -15%
Crit 10%


Goblin (Fastest Hitter)
haste 25%
Def -15%
Off 10%
Crit 10%
Health -10%

Dwarves (Good Tank)
Dmg 15%
Def 15%
Maxhealth 15%
Maxmana -10%
Casthaste -5%
Crit -10%
xp penalty 15%

Elves (Good Caster)
Maxmana 20%
Maxhealth -5%
Casthaste 20%
Off 15%

Dark Elves (Great Caster)
Maxmana 30%
Maxhealth -10%
Casthaste 20%
SpellDmg 5%
Dmg -5%
Crit 5%

Drakken (Good All-Around)
Maxhealth 15%
Def 10%
Dmg 10%
Off 15%
Crit -10%
Resist Fire: 25
Resist Cold -75
xp penalty - 25%


Halfling (Fast, Hard to Hit)
Movement 20%
Def 15%
Health -10%
Haste 10%

Ogre (Good Tank)
Movement -10%
Dmg 10%
Def -5%
Maxhealth 15%
Haste -10%
Crit -5%

Orc (Big things come in small packages)
Movement 10%
Dmg 5%
Health 5%
Def 10%
Maxmana -10%
Casthaste -10%
Crit 10%
Feel free to post suggestions

I have one question : you say duration " until death" .. I get this but " or resurected by a cleric" it would mean that we would be resurected BUT the grave should remain in place right ?

If a Necro casts Undeath on you, your grave remains, but now other Necro's can't use Undeath on the grave, instead only Clerics.
As for troll, I think a Troll should hit harder than that They are big, lumbering clumsy oafs that don't fully realize their immense strength. Up that damage a bit further.
Titan should get a defense bonus, not necessarily a huge one, but certainly get one. And a giant being made of stone should be a little slower. I think Titan and Troll should be similar in certain respects, but also different. Titan is slowed, but not by as much as the lumbering Troll. Titan, instead of getting health and health regen, should get higher defense and phys resist. Titan doesn't get penalties to magic, because they are inherently magical, and not simply stupid. Trolls are stupid, clumsy, and have a hard time speaking. Spells are very difficult to them.
Another suggestion, so that the bonuses and penalties matter, do them on a scale of 5-15%. 5% is slight bonus, slightly better than a human. 10% is a moderate bonus, the race is naturally inclined to do well at the skill. 15% is expert, this race is a master at this.
To better offset the greater penalties of the troll, it makes sense that what it's good at is going to have a greater benefit, simply because it needs this to still succeed as a race. Continue this with other races, if they have greater benefits in one area, make sure penalties match to make the race fair, or make the benefits lower for what ever it is it is skilled at.
All races should be better at some things, but worse at others, compared to humans. As such, every race should have penalties applied in some category, otherwise humans become strictly worse than any race with out penalties.
To make the races distinct, so they stand out from the other races, there should be multiple items listed that change compared to other races. Goblin, for example, only has haste, but it looks to be rather dextrous. It should also have higher offense and a better crit rate. The small body means it won't have as much for health or defense. Now you have bonuses and penalties.
Dwarves aren't an inherently magical race. They are stronger than normal, and of a stout body, so they can take more blows than most. Add some anti-magic penalties to as a way to balance this race out.
It makes sense that Elves and Dark Elves are going to be similar, but you just made Dark Elves strictly worse than Elves by penalizing the health more, while giving no other advantage. To make the Elves a little more distinct, add an offense bonus, and to the Dark Elves, more magical mastery. Maybe even a bonus to spell damage.
Titans need something for a penalty, though it's hard to get an idea what can be penalized among the Titans. They don't exist in traditional fantasy, and all you can really get an idea of from them, is that they are made of stone, so they will be strong, and difficult to damage with weaponry, or fists. Some races already have an XP penalty, make this one of those races, and make the penalty significant enough to make up the difference.
I would never give a lizard race a penalty to offense, that's the opposite of what they are. They are going to be very quick, agile, and able to strike with speed and skill that's hard to match. Offense should be boosted. Drakkens don't like cold though, make the cold penalty more significant, up it to -50 or -75, and give a fair xp penalty to level.
Halflings, though small, are nimble and agile. They'll be skilled at dodging attacks, but low in health. Lower health some, and also a bit of haste seems appropriate, they should be quick. Movement speed should go up in that class too.
Ogres in this game aren't dumb, by any means. They also aren't a magical race, so a smaller penalty could be applied to casting. They aren't clumsy either, they are simply savage. Offense isn't really a place to penalize them. Defense seems fair, they don't seem to be the kind to worry about being properly armored. Damage needs a decent bonus though. Haste you could possibly penalize. They won't focus on hitting faster, simply hitting harder.
Orcs, same thing on the offense. They aren't quite focused on hitting as hard, but they are strong, so damage goes up, haste could go up some, but probably not. They aren't a magical race either, a penalty could be applied here. Health could go up some, not a lot, but some. Defense should probably get a bonus, not a huge one.

For many of the melee oriented races, crits should go down. Dextrous and quick races should get more crits in general, though Halflings seem like they wouldn't crit heavily, so they would make a good exception. Not penalized, but not bonused either.

These are just my thoughts on the races. Feel free to discuss anything here you disagree with.

oh I won't make some long detailed speech as Kage just did ( a great one by the way)

BUt what about monsters? whould it depend on the Race too or only be a great " monster" class ?

and remember that, as any other spell it gain +50% efficacity when tomed to X and +50% when you reach level 50 ( it is a level 40 spell iirc) ... so would those stats be a level 40 tomed I spell or the final one with + 100% ?

as for the 5-15% it is quite a good idea I think...


I also think the undead spell should have a positive effect for the Necromancer who casted it. For example it should also provide him a pet, image of the dead toon, if only his own level is at least 10 levels over the guy he brings back to life. it would be a pretty good thing to have that challenge between the Necro's pets and the one he just ressurected! "should I keep this goblin level 50 45 40 wiz/rev/war or summon my own best pet ?" it would be someway hard to now which one would be the best. it could last for 15 minutes if a duration time is requested, as the dominating spells the revealer as ...
This could be a bit hard to create, wo instead of haveing an image of the dead toon, we might summon a mummy / lich / skelly (I don't know) who would have the classes and levels of the body in the grave BUT wearing the items we put on our pet inventory ( with the same limit of -10 levels)

well the races was still a very rough idea, thanks for the tips though

as to your suggestions Necro im not sure the pet idea makes it the same idea, currently its a resurrection spell, we just fooled around with it making the target Undead, so the pet idea doesn't fit with it well. Thank you for pointing out the tome question I'd have to think about it, seems pretty powerful as is so personally id say this would be it at X at lvl 50, what do you think Kage?

Some Races still quite uneven i'll work on it in my free time. would the xp penalty be percent as well? If so same with 5-15%, I put the medium, heavy etc up there so I would remember.

With XP, on Titan, if no noticable downsides can be come up with, make it very hard to level the Titan. More than the 15%. Probably +40%, make the player really work for benefits gained from a strictly better class.

you think that at each kill the xpd gain should be reduced ? or only at the resurection as a reverse effect of the cleric spell ? .. if it is the first option, 40% is a bit too much .. no titan would accept to be rezed by a necro .

We are talking about races in general, not having anything to do with the necro spell

As Kuliana said, we were talking about the races, specifically the Titan, not resurrection. Those bonuses and penalties are racial traits, not the changes based on being rez'd by Necro. Basically, something that makes the choice of Titan have a downside, rather than the race being all positive. Otherwise the choice of Human becomes worthless. Although, class selection could also be a downside. Titans are some what limited in race choices, so that could be a downside instead of an XP penalty. I can't believe I forgot to consider that.

Also, the Undeath traits would be on top of racial traits. If you get Undeath'd, you get your races bonuses/penalties, and get the Undeath bonuses/penalties on top of that. A melee oriented race, with Undeath, would be an amazing tank for example. A race that excels at casting would likely breed caster builds, and would not want to be Undeath'd, as suddenly the main reason for choosing that race becomes worthless.

Kuliana, perhaps the Undead traits should be scaled according to the 5%-15% bonuses. As it is, it looks like Undeath is more of a trait than the original race, and I think the original race should have as much influence as being undead.

Ok only thing is, would 15% maxmana and casthaste reduction really be enough of a deterrent to casting? Also the only two otheres i really see as 15% not being quite enough is health and stamina

Well, the alternative to lessening the Undeath effect, is to increase the racial traits. That way Undeath doesn't seem to simply override what ever your traits are. Make it a scale of 10-30% instead. That could also work, and make the race you choose matter more.

I like that idea, that way it makes races and the spell both effective and unique

Edited, but i still see some possible problems with a few races